Wagons & Drivers
I'm in the process of putting together a participation game which involves the Austrian ambush of a Prussian wagon train (which one - answers on a post card), and decided I needed some wagons.
The starting point for the horse teams and drivers was the limber horses from the Karoliner range, these are fine, however, for most of them I replaced the heads with ones from the SYW range, as I think they fit in better with the rest of my collection.
The wagons and caissons are all 3D prints of Napoleonic types based on files purchased from Najewitz Modellbau. The files for the wagons are hidden within their Napoleonic terrain packages (which is where the building files for my buildings were obtained). I appreciate that the types may not be historically correct for the Seven Years War, but I decided they would be close enough for what I wanted.
I also decided that I wanted to have some of the wagons to have their drivers on foot. My initial plan was to use the artilleryman with rammer, cut off the rammer and then bend down the arm a little so he looked as if he was leading the horse. However, knowing that the artillery were sculpted digitally I pushed my luck and asked Chris if he could do that for me digitally and send me the STL file so I could print them myself; he exceeded my expectations and sent me an STL file for a new civilian figure in the pose I had suggested.
There is also a Napoleonic ambulance, again probably not accurate but looks good.
One thing I did change as printing progressed was the wheels. The ones with the Najewitz files are those on the ambulance above, the joints in the wheel rim are just nonsense, with some of the joints over the spokes - they would just fall apart. I replaced them on later models with wheels rescaled from a French Napoleonic cannon, as the ones on the caisson at the top.
For the later wagons I wanted to remove the driver's seat, which looks a bit later than SYW, so had a go at mixing, matching and rescaling parts from several models. The body is from a different wagon, the cover and axles from the earlier field wagon and the wheels from the cannon - I think it looks more SYW.
And it can be filled with barrels....
The caisson is probably the least accurate as it should probably be more like the one below.
So I rescaled the cover to the wagon and arrived at this - which is much closer (I suppose it could be closer if the body was shortened and the cover made to overhang a little).
The reason I have shown so many photos is to show what can be done using 3D printers. I have no sculpting ability (too late to learn now), and have not used a sculpting program. This has all been done within the actual printer slicing package by just rescaling parts in varying ratios to better match what I was trying to produce.
Civilians
Chris produced the wagon driver in digital form and let me have the file to print for this participation game - there are no plans to put these into production.
Does anyone think there would be a market for a few civilian types (or perhaps soldiers in waistcoats), in poses such as that leading the wagon, or perhaps carrying out engineering tasks such as digging with shovels, swinging pick axes or carrying logs??????
As always comments appreciated.
Nice looking wagons and figures, Certainly civilians are always handy to populate a table, be interesting to see what others think.
ReplyDeleteThanks, the wagons will set the scene for the ambush.
DeleteI don't think PA have any plans for civilians at present, however they are receptive to ideas - if they think they will sell.
I think a few civilians with a variety of heads and attachable arms would be the way to go, as it would provide for lots of different uses
ReplyDeleteI agree, some civilians/labouring soldiers in waistcoats could be useful.
DeleteGood grief, yes I'd buy some civilian moulds... I've been converting a mix of the Karoliner & SYW artillery crews for pioneers with some Irregular figures added in. It's going OK but they look "samey".
ReplyDeleteThe jaeger hornists can be altered to be horse-leaders by cutting the right arm off at the shoulder and replacing with something else -- standard bearer arms, the general's baton arm drilled out to take an ox-prodding stick or twisted-wire rope etc. Which has the adv of having a musket in his left hand so he still looks part of the army; he then just needs some of the uniform decoration removing.
(It would be lovely to have a left arm trailing a musket/carbine at some point for these sorts of conversions).
If a civilian figure had (say) both arms separate and a couple of the variants are drillable to take a 2mm, they could be given all sorts of tools and implements; O-scale model railway manufacturers make buckets and shovels and picks and axes and other farm tools.
It could be one of the figures in the coated artillery set that you're keen on having added. I know a waistcoated one would work better, but I'd take any option really. (I'm a sucker for adding all the bits-and-bobs that surround an army and in 40mm it's proving harder...)
I still have not found a good wagon-driver figure. Irregular do a waistcoated figure who can be bent&filed to sit on a wagon bench but it's a lot of work. The coated variant is just too clearly sat on a horse. S&S do one but I have not managed to get one yet.
I'm also looking for seated officer figures for a diorama and I can't find anything, including in printed. The closest I can get is wild west gamblers and they're just too out-of-era.
For other farm wagons, I'm planning to just scratchbuild some. Something that may help wagon scratchbuilders is that Warbases make a sprue of wagon wheels in various sizes/styles up to about 25mm. (https://warbases.co.uk/product/cart-wheels-28mm-scale/) I also persuaded them to make me some at 32mm to use for the artillery because I'm utterly unable to get the wheels to come out of the moulds. (I'm sure they'd make them for other people if asked)
The arms mould in with the cuirassier mould looks great, by the way. Looking forward to using that for conversions. Officers with pistols and so on.
DeleteThanks for the reply - looks like civilians are something you would like.
DeleteWagon drivers are a bit of an odd one, as the wagons really need to be fully three dimensional, so would look odd with a semi flat driver - which is why I went for either the mounted one from the Karoliner limbers, or the semi-flat one on foot.
I think there might be a place for one or two moulds with 'civilians' which would make up a working party.
It would be interesting to see your conversions.
With regards wheels, I am luck enough to have a resin 3D printer, so can easily rescale wheels - and get clean prints (I have always struggled with wheels).
Where are you based?
Oh yes... I hadn't really thought about the flatness issue. It's interesting that the Irregular figures, despite not being semi-flats actually mix OK with the PAs.
DeleteMore of an issue is the surprisingly varied size of PA figures and Irregular's sometimes being a bit small. I was hoping to use the leverer from PA71 as an engineer having got the mould secondhand... but after casting them they're enormous and tower over the Karoliner or SYW figures.
Yeah. Wheels are annoying. Almost everything else eventually has come out. I got very poor rates out of the NCO pole weapons but -- since I'm building "Imaginations" -- I've just decided that one army's NCOs carry a NorthStar spear and the other ones' carry a FireForge plastic halberd and I'll greenstuff the hands.
I got a total of about 1 complete wheel in each size after days of trying and at that point decided I'm using the lasercut wood ones. They work quite well and are cost-effective -- I'm basing the guns on 50x50 squares which helps with any possible fragility. And I order from Warbases fairly regularly anyway!!
(If we could only convince them to make some of their buildings in 40mm scale..)
There's also quite a lot of metal wheels available up to about 25mm. Irregular do a decently priced set with two sizes and there's a pack in the Trent range (now at Skytrex).
Ironically, a lot of the articles/videos on scratch-building farm/supply waggons recommend using PA wheels for simplicity...
The only other thing I really got *really* stuck with was the Hussar bugle arm. I'd got to the point of deciding that my horse units wouldn't have bugles...
DeleteI then ended up with a second copy of that mould in a joblot purchase and noticed that the parts are slightly differently laid out. And that bugle arm casts easily >50% so I got loads of them.
It was surprising because I'd sort of assumed PA's process was akin to a miniatures company making moulds -- making an RTV from green/printed masters already sprued together, casting a master in something like brass from that and then pressure moulding the rubber blocks in one go from that. And that that would leave all the moulds identical.
At some point I must go and visit them and find out what they're actually doing!!!
The moulds are in a way 'handmade', so there will be variation in the moulds dependent upon how the masters are placed. Have a look at the first couple of minutes of the 'RTE Programme' link in the post dated Saturday, 17 October 2015.
DeleteAs you can see in the video, PA do use metal masters in the pressing process, in the past were brass but now they use a a different metal, but still the same process.
Oh, and wheels - I did a lot of venting and used Model Metal, and got perhaps 20% OK.
DeleteI have to confess to cheating, and now print wheels in resin on a 3D printer!
Thank you Steve for this current update. Wagons look great. As for the question of civilian figures, I doubt if there is enough demand compared to soldiers. The reasons are the following.
ReplyDelete1. Personal reproduction of civilian figures from a mould. While many cast copies of soldiers are realistic for an unit, this is not the case with civilians. Other comments mentioned it already, that if civilians get produced, the figures need to have separate arms to allow a maximum variety. This argument I support strongly. I prefer civilians with coats.
2. The main question is on what occasions civilians would mix with soldiers in the SYW? It was most of the time billeting, labour for defense-constructions / reparations, pillage / sale, to clean up a battlefields after the battle (burry dead, care of wounded) and finally transportation. If we would have civilians for such duties, we still lack the soldiers that would fit as those soldiers we have now, have not poses that can be used (compare 54 mm Napolean range with civilian scenes). These occasions are not very popular and I worry that the classical toy soldier collector prefers to invest in the army rather than in such specific themes.
3. I see only one occasion with potential: it is transportation. Although armies of SYW had there own wagons, armies come back to private transportation when a lot of material had to be transported or/and in a short time (for example stock of bread, grain, gun powder, …). Such civilian figures I support. It means basically wagoners. But we still lack wagons. I understand and do not ask that PA produces a wagon. But it would be good, if PA makes moulds that allows to build a wagon by everybody at home. It means PA furnishes limber, wheels, axle, horses and a printable pdf with the other pieces needed to build a wagon (sidewalls, bottom, roof etc.). Each person can print the paper and glue on cardboard and so we have a metal/cardboard wagon. Problem of thin big surfaces to cast is avoided and no problem of heavy metal chassis that bows the axles. Theses pieces are also needed for the SYW artillery as for now, we need to go back to the Karoliner or HE.
Conclusion: civilian figures yes, but only wagoners and with separate heads, arms for maximum variety. Personally I would put the artillery crew in coats, the standing soldiers that still lack (drummer, NCO, standard bearer, and musket at ready) higher in priority, so a standing unit would be complet.
Stefan
DeleteThanks for your input.
1, 2 - My thoughts were that it might be worth just a couple of moulds to represent soldiers/civilians in engineering tasks and as wagon drivers on foot, which is why I suggested waistcoats and shirt sleeves. Quite a bit could be done with separate arms and a collection of tools.
3. As you can see I've used the old Karoliner limber horses and mounted drivers which work OK after cutting off the heavy traces - however I suppose there is a place for new ones with more accurate harness.
The wheels from the SYW artillery are OK for the rear wheels of a wagon, however there are no suitable moulds available to cast wheels for the front (the current small wheels are all 8 spoke). There might be a place for a new 'Austrian' limber with the correct wheel size for both the limber and wagon front axle. (That wheel would also probably be correct for a Prussian 3pdr battalion gun).
"As for the question of civilian figures, I doubt if there is enough demand compared to soldiers."
DeleteI can understand us sort of thinking like that -- because we're wargamers. But PA make moulds for things like fox-hunting dioramas... I sort of get the impression that their target audience really aren't the kind of people who are worrying that the "500 casts per mould" lifespan is not really enough...
I've never had a mould wear out.
DeleteI'll leave civilians/pioneers on the wish list - but don't hold your breath.
Personally, I wouldn't have any reason to buy civilian figures, especially when there are still so many military subjects that PA could produce. However, what if PA were to do a sideline of STL files for more niche models? That way people with an interest could print and mould their own (easily in metal or resin)
ReplyDeleteThis would prevent PA from having to gamble on a release and production of a mould that would have limited use or sales - you could apply the same model to some of the more esoteric units like Bosniaks or easily make conversion accessories/heads etc
I have broached the idea of STL files with Chris, however we all know that like pdf files, once out there PA have no control of them.
DeleteI suspect for PA a large proportion of the cost is in the sculpting, so I doubt they are not going to invest in sculpting a figure then give it away. I have suggested they allow free STL downloads of useful parts such as wheels which for example could be easily rescaled to produce cannon types they do not cover.
I would guess it's the sculpting plus the effort in producing a reproducible mould that will work for amateur casters in environments they can't really control. Commercial casters usually make their own moulds and fettle them to work with their particular processes/machines/metal/etc. PA has to get a mould that random people can chuck potentially random metal through and get passible results... I've heard of people using discarded tyre-balancing weights to cast with and making the moulds function correctly with stuff like that must be a nightmare and potentially a big part of the process costs.
DeleteI think PA are pretty good at making sure the moulds cast, although you might need to use their expensive Model Metal for detailed parts, also their website usually has venting suggestions for the trickier ones.
DeleteI tend to use 'scrap' metal for the bulk of the casting but have some Model Metal for the difficult bits.
Commercial spin castings applies a lot more pressure to the casting than the small pressure from the ingate.
1-2: the argument for shirt sleeves and waistcoats is that one figure covers all armies. 3: currently exists a small wheel from Piccolina. They have a 54 mm range with 2 2-axle wagon moulds. Both use the same front wheel: it is 25.5 mm outer diameter with 12 spikes (I think 10 spikes look better and are more realistic - but both are better than 8 spikes). The wheels looks good, but mould quality is not the best - silicon with sometimes bubbles. You recap perfectly my wish for limber and horses. For the bigger wheel the SYW-cannon mould is perfect. Last question about new artillery crew in coats: do you have news? I would like to give you my input for such figures if not too late and if you are interested. I have sent you a short message on facebook - hope it was the right adress.
ReplyDeleteYou got the correct FB address - I have replied.
DeletePA do not have plans to produce artillery crews in coats in the near future - however I do keep adding them to my wish/ideas list.
Chris is currently sculpting the British standard bearer and NCO (I have no idea why they were missed), they look nice, I will show some preliminary pictures.
Duffy's book on the Austrian army shows 12 spokes on the front wheels of the ammunition wagon, and pictures on Kronoskaf show 12 spokes on the Prussian 3pdr so scaling down the artillery wheel seems OK.